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Article_Gay marriage debate: No winners or losers, but no shouting either

Feature News | Monday, October 20, 2014

Gay marriage debate: No winners or losers, but no shouting either

Florida Catholic Conference director joins other panelists at Broward College forum

Panelists at the gay marriage debate, from left, are attorney Robert Alwine of Miami; Michael Sheedy, executive director of the Florida Catholic Conference; and Howard Simon, executive director of the Florida American Civil Liberties Union.

Photographer: JIM DAVIS | FC

Panelists at the gay marriage debate, from left, are attorney Robert Alwine of Miami; Michael Sheedy, executive director of the Florida Catholic Conference; and Howard Simon, executive director of the Florida American Civil Liberties Union.

PEMBROKE PINES | Sometimes you can measure a debate not by who wins but by the lack of shouting — as at a recent forum on same-sex marriage.

That's how some participants saw the debate among lawyers, a Catholic leader and a philosophy professor Oct. 13 at Broward College's south campus.

"This has been a contentious issue in Florida for 10 years, and this was the most civil discussion that I can recall," said Howard Simon, executive director for American Civil Liberties Union of Florida. "It could have easily been a shouting match."

Attorney Robert Alwine, one of Simon's debate opponents, shared his opinion. "It was a fair audience. I think some good was done."

The event drew about 300 mostly younger listeners to the college's performing arts theater. Under the genial guidance of moderator Henry Mack, associate dean of academic affairs at the college, the five panelists set out their cases, then sparred in a brief direct debate before answering questions.

Speaking alongside Alwine for the traditional view of marriage was Michael Sheedy, executive director of the Florida Catholic Conference. Sheedy said that the gay marriage movement is a symptom of confusion over the nature of marriage — an attempt to redefine it from a union of man, woman and their children in favor of a mere pact between consenting adults.

"Marriage is in crisis because it has become nothing more than an adult-centric institution," Sheedy said. "In the minds of a growing number of people, it is no longer the foundation of the family. Protecting the traditional definition of marriage in the law is critical to preserve the only institution that unites children with their mothers and fathers."

Alwine traced the road to same-sex marriage back 40 years, to the "no-fault" divorce laws that made it easier to break up families. Those laws damaged several values of traditional marriage, he said: permanency, monogamy and fidelity. He said the state has an interest in preserving those values for the "common good."

Without the dual anchors of mother and father, Alwine said, children of single-parent homes are more likely to commit crimes, live in poverty, run away from home and become teenage parents.

Michael Sheedy, left, of the Florida Catholic Conference listens to Howard Simon of the Florida American Civil Liberties Union.

Photographer: JIM DAVIS | FC

Michael Sheedy, left, of the Florida Catholic Conference listens to Howard Simon of the Florida American Civil Liberties Union.

"If we redefine marriage and eliminate the norm of sexual complementarity, there is no institution left in civil society and public life that upholds, even as an ideal, that children deserve a mother and a father," Alwine said. 

ACLU's Howard Simon likewise traced gay marriage in history, but from a different starting point: the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which outlawed racial discrimination in schools, stores, workplaces and restaurants.

Other memorable dates include 1967, when ACLU helped overturn laws against interracial marriage; 2013, when the U.S. Supreme Court struck down part of the national Defense of Marriage Act; and earlier this year, when ACLU filed its case against the ban on gay marriage in Florida's constitution.

"Good or bad, it's going to happen," Simon said of legalizing gay marriage. "There's no way to reverse it. It's inevitable."

Also at the debate was Richard Milstein, a Miami lawyer who was one of the plaintiffs in ACLU's Florida lawsuit. Milstein said that even the attempt to rule who has the right to marry is "a form of discrimination."

"If I die on my way home, my husband can't inherit my Social Security benefits," Milstein said. He called laws defining marriage "a form of discrimination."

Michael Hurlburt, who teaches philosophy at Broward College, joined others in invoking the constitutional separation of church and state. He noted also that various religions frown on practices like caffeine, alcohol, piercings and tattoos.

"There are different religions, and they see morality differently," he said. "If a gay couple were married, I don’t see that it would change the definition or cause any confusion with me and our family."

Milstein called it an "enormous waste of intellectual energy, talking about the definition of marriage. There are so many kinds of marriage: no children, single parents, foster children. We're not talking about changing the definition. We're talking about allowing same-sex couples access to the same institutions as other couples."

During the Q&A session, one listener pointed out that the government outlaws bigamy; therefore, why shouldn't it also limit marriage to a man and woman? That led the panel into a multi-sided discussion.

One stream looked at recent lawsuits against business owners in several states — including a florist, a baker and a photographer — who declined to work for gay weddings. Simon, the ACLU director, conceded that some cases pit civil rights against religious rights. In such cases, "Equal treatment trumps religious conscience," he said.

In reply, one listener pointed out that the U.S. Constitution guarantees freedom of religion but doesn't discuss sexuality, "so freedom of religion should trump" — drawing applause from the audience.

Alwine called it a "false analogy" to compare gay rights with the civil rights movement. "There is nothing in the traditional view of marriage that talks about white and African American people marrying."

But Simon said the comparison has been used by "every judge in dealing with same-sex marriage."

A couple of ripples in the civil mood popped up during the Q&A session. An avowed atheist asked if priests could curb their "homosexual tendencies." Another man asked if legalizing same-sex marriage would open the door to incest and polygamy. Debate moderator Mack and the panel brushed off both questions.

After the debate, the panelists noshed cannolis with the audience at a reception. The listeners' reactions varied as much as those of the speakers.

Michael Ray of Sunrise, the man who asked about incest and polygamy, said he was "disappointed" that the questions weren't answered. "It's about the further redefinition of marriage. When you accept gay marriage, you open the door for other things."

Freshman Jea Villanueva said she didn't know why people make such a "big deal" out of gay marriage. "If my neighbor is in a gay marriage, how does that affect me? It's an issue of tolerance. Live and let live."

But Matthew Sarto of Davie praised the panel, especially Alwine's presentation. "I believe the Church needs to disseminate the message about what is sinful behavior," he said. "No matter what the government tells us, we must abide by that." 

Panelists pose for a group photo after the recent debate on same-sex marriage and religious liberty at Broward College South. From left are lawyer Richard Milstein of Miami; Michael Hurlburt, assistant professor of philosophy at the college; attorney Robert Alwine of Miami; Michael Sheedy, executive director of the Florida Catholic Conference; Howard Simon, executive director of the Florida American Civil Liberties Union; and Henry Mack, associate dean of academic affairs at the college.

Photographer: JIM DAVIS | FC

Panelists pose for a group photo after the recent debate on same-sex marriage and religious liberty at Broward College South. From left are lawyer Richard Milstein of Miami; Michael Hurlburt, assistant professor of philosophy at the college; attorney Robert Alwine of Miami; Michael Sheedy, executive director of the Florida Catholic Conference; Howard Simon, executive director of the Florida American Civil Liberties Union; and Henry Mack, associate dean of academic affairs at the college.

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